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	<title>Comments on: Helpful Hand-Holding</title>
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	<link>http://rooc.offtopicproductions.com/blog/2008/04/14/helpful-hand-holding/</link>
	<description>General mind-dump of Jonas Wæver</description>
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		<title>By: Jonas</title>
		<link>http://rooc.offtopicproductions.com/blog/2008/04/14/helpful-hand-holding/comment-page-1/#comment-1124</link>
		<dc:creator>Jonas</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 Apr 2008 15:05:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://rooc.offtopicproductions.com/blog/2008/04/14/helpful-hand-holding/#comment-1124</guid>
		<description>Exactly. Puzzles suck.

But I think the rest of this discussion belongs in more private, spoiler-friendly quarters. To MSN I say!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Exactly. Puzzles suck.</p>
<p>But I think the rest of this discussion belongs in more private, spoiler-friendly quarters. To MSN I say!</p>
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		<title>By: Gelo</title>
		<link>http://rooc.offtopicproductions.com/blog/2008/04/14/helpful-hand-holding/comment-page-1/#comment-1123</link>
		<dc:creator>Gelo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 Apr 2008 14:26:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://rooc.offtopicproductions.com/blog/2008/04/14/helpful-hand-holding/#comment-1123</guid>
		<description>This is why it&#039;s good to have a dunce gamer around sometimes :-). I think your idea to open up other solutions is a good thing, and fitting with the DX gameplay style too.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is why it&#8217;s good to have a dunce gamer around sometimes <img src='http://rooc.offtopicproductions.com/blog/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':-)' class='wp-smiley' /> . I think your idea to open up other solutions is a good thing, and fitting with the DX gameplay style too.</p>
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		<title>By: Jonas</title>
		<link>http://rooc.offtopicproductions.com/blog/2008/04/14/helpful-hand-holding/comment-page-1/#comment-1122</link>
		<dc:creator>Jonas</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 Apr 2008 14:17:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://rooc.offtopicproductions.com/blog/2008/04/14/helpful-hand-holding/#comment-1122</guid>
		<description>Yeah I&#039;ll be the first to admit that mission still needs some work. I&#039;m thinking about opening the resolution up to one or two easier but more resource-demanding solutions (so you can bypass the &quot;optimal&quot; solution if you&#039;re willing to expend several items to do so). I&#039;m also thinking about ways to make the solution (crap, it really &lt;em&gt;is&lt;/em&gt; a puzzle, isn&#039;t it? I suck so hard :oops: ) a bit easier to come by, for which I have some ideas.

Perhaps unsurprisingly, this entire mission is actually a remnant from the first TNM design (I stopped revising the design document after version 4) which called for the whole mod to be very adventure-like and open-ended and rely a lot on character interaction and investigation. But you are absolutely right that this gameplay only works if you either know exactly who to talk to (eg. by having each NPC tell you exactly who to talk to next, which is how we do it now) or if you can get the info you need from several different characters (perhaps with some kind of information bonus if you pick the most logical NPC to talk to, eg. the guy who would logically know the most about what you&#039;re investigating). Of course if you kill all the people who were supposed to lead you in the right direction, it&#039;s your own fault for making things hard for yourself - you can expect to only get the bare minimum of information then, which means you probably shouldn&#039;t kill everybody until your second playthrough ;)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yeah I&#8217;ll be the first to admit that mission still needs some work. I&#8217;m thinking about opening the resolution up to one or two easier but more resource-demanding solutions (so you can bypass the &#8220;optimal&#8221; solution if you&#8217;re willing to expend several items to do so). I&#8217;m also thinking about ways to make the solution (crap, it really <em>is</em> a puzzle, isn&#8217;t it? I suck so hard <img src='http://rooc.offtopicproductions.com/blog/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_redface.gif' alt=':oops:' class='wp-smiley' />  ) a bit easier to come by, for which I have some ideas.</p>
<p>Perhaps unsurprisingly, this entire mission is actually a remnant from the first TNM design (I stopped revising the design document after version 4) which called for the whole mod to be very adventure-like and open-ended and rely a lot on character interaction and investigation. But you are absolutely right that this gameplay only works if you either know exactly who to talk to (eg. by having each NPC tell you exactly who to talk to next, which is how we do it now) or if you can get the info you need from several different characters (perhaps with some kind of information bonus if you pick the most logical NPC to talk to, eg. the guy who would logically know the most about what you&#8217;re investigating). Of course if you kill all the people who were supposed to lead you in the right direction, it&#8217;s your own fault for making things hard for yourself &#8211; you can expect to only get the bare minimum of information then, which means you probably shouldn&#8217;t kill everybody until your second playthrough <img src='http://rooc.offtopicproductions.com/blog/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: Gelo</title>
		<link>http://rooc.offtopicproductions.com/blog/2008/04/14/helpful-hand-holding/comment-page-1/#comment-1121</link>
		<dc:creator>Gelo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 Apr 2008 14:07:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://rooc.offtopicproductions.com/blog/2008/04/14/helpful-hand-holding/#comment-1121</guid>
		<description>In that case I would say that you trained yourself to play that style of gameplay. For people who didn&#039;t go looking under every nook and cranny (which like you said is optional), it&#039;s a big change in the gameplay. 

But I think in the case of TNM, even outside the gameplay training issue the investigation scenario was a bit tough. There&#039;s nothing like it for the rest of the game and up to (and after) that point you are not required to interact with NPCs&#039; in any similar manner (that&#039;s the training issue). It takes place in the largest single continuous space of the entire game, and you needed to run around to exactly the right people to get the exact right clues and then figure out the exact right geographic spaces and then put them together into a solution which one requires you to do something which isn&#039;t totally logical (I don&#039;t want to spoil anything, but the resolution, while slightly humorous, is nonsensical in that no normal person would react in the way that the to-be-left-unnamed NPC does).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In that case I would say that you trained yourself to play that style of gameplay. For people who didn&#8217;t go looking under every nook and cranny (which like you said is optional), it&#8217;s a big change in the gameplay. </p>
<p>But I think in the case of TNM, even outside the gameplay training issue the investigation scenario was a bit tough. There&#8217;s nothing like it for the rest of the game and up to (and after) that point you are not required to interact with NPCs&#8217; in any similar manner (that&#8217;s the training issue). It takes place in the largest single continuous space of the entire game, and you needed to run around to exactly the right people to get the exact right clues and then figure out the exact right geographic spaces and then put them together into a solution which one requires you to do something which isn&#8217;t totally logical (I don&#8217;t want to spoil anything, but the resolution, while slightly humorous, is nonsensical in that no normal person would react in the way that the to-be-left-unnamed NPC does).</p>
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		<title>By: Jonas</title>
		<link>http://rooc.offtopicproductions.com/blog/2008/04/14/helpful-hand-holding/comment-page-1/#comment-1120</link>
		<dc:creator>Jonas</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 Apr 2008 13:48:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://rooc.offtopicproductions.com/blog/2008/04/14/helpful-hand-holding/#comment-1120</guid>
		<description>Yeah but the problem is that an investigation mission is completely in line with how &lt;strong&gt;I&lt;/strong&gt; play Deus Ex: I play it as an action-adventure game, meaning I spend a lot of time wandering around the big levels, exploring every corner, looking for hidden goodies and exploration skillpoint bonuses. To get a mission requiring me to go look for a particular hidden base is really perfectly in line with my play style.

I guess the problem occurs because exploration and character interaction is the only way to solve those missions, so players who prefer to just follow the directions in their Goal menu will be confused. There is really no way to just break out the big guns and blast your way towards the objective when the only challenge is to find the objective in the first place. Well, except of course if you shoot your contacts instead of talking to them, in which case you&#039;ll pick the clues off their corpse instead, but it would still require some creative thinking just to find them if we didn&#039;t actually write who they are in your quest log.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yeah but the problem is that an investigation mission is completely in line with how <strong>I</strong> play Deus Ex: I play it as an action-adventure game, meaning I spend a lot of time wandering around the big levels, exploring every corner, looking for hidden goodies and exploration skillpoint bonuses. To get a mission requiring me to go look for a particular hidden base is really perfectly in line with my play style.</p>
<p>I guess the problem occurs because exploration and character interaction is the only way to solve those missions, so players who prefer to just follow the directions in their Goal menu will be confused. There is really no way to just break out the big guns and blast your way towards the objective when the only challenge is to find the objective in the first place. Well, except of course if you shoot your contacts instead of talking to them, in which case you&#8217;ll pick the clues off their corpse instead, but it would still require some creative thinking just to find them if we didn&#8217;t actually write who they are in your quest log.</p>
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		<title>By: Gelo</title>
		<link>http://rooc.offtopicproductions.com/blog/2008/04/14/helpful-hand-holding/comment-page-1/#comment-1118</link>
		<dc:creator>Gelo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 Apr 2008 12:58:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://rooc.offtopicproductions.com/blog/2008/04/14/helpful-hand-holding/#comment-1118</guid>
		<description>I think the key problem is training. If you want your players to play a game a certain way, you need to train the to think that way. With DX/TNM I think the main issue (at least for me) is that it isn&#039;t a puzzle game and then to suddenly require the player to play the game in a different way half-way through is jarring. If it had been a constant theme throughout the game (starting with a few basic elements and then leading to more complex situations as the game progressed) I don&#039;t think it would have been as difficult.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think the key problem is training. If you want your players to play a game a certain way, you need to train the to think that way. With DX/TNM I think the main issue (at least for me) is that it isn&#8217;t a puzzle game and then to suddenly require the player to play the game in a different way half-way through is jarring. If it had been a constant theme throughout the game (starting with a few basic elements and then leading to more complex situations as the game progressed) I don&#8217;t think it would have been as difficult.</p>
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		<title>By: Jonas</title>
		<link>http://rooc.offtopicproductions.com/blog/2008/04/14/helpful-hand-holding/comment-page-1/#comment-1117</link>
		<dc:creator>Jonas</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 Apr 2008 12:04:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://rooc.offtopicproductions.com/blog/2008/04/14/helpful-hand-holding/#comment-1117</guid>
		<description>Yeah absolutely, that&#039;s why I generally don&#039;t like puzzles (I prefer problems, because they usually have more solutions). In this case, however, the problem isn&#039;t solving puzzles but simply figuring out how to proceed.

The main investigation mission we have occurs the first section of the game for one storyline and much later in the game for the other, and involves tracking down the hideout of a terrorist cell. You don&#039;t actually have to follow the leads and talk to the people who can help you find them - if you can guess the way or if you know it from a previous playthrough, you can actually skip the whole investigation and just go straight to their hideout.

But I found I had to make the trail of breadcrumbs leading to their hideout &lt;em&gt;really&lt;/em&gt; easy to follow (by, for example, telling you explicitly in your quest log who to talk to next :? ). As soon as the player isn&#039;t told exactly how to find the next clue, the player is very likely to just give up. It&#039;s easy to condemn the player for being stupid in such situations, but the fact is that not a lot of people enjoy not knowing what to do, and actual independent investigation is really difficult.

I was quite disappointed every time I had to scale down an investigation mission, but I feel that TNM is generally better for it. There are still a few very minor details you need to figure out on your own though, because I just couldn&#039;t get myself to simplify the game completely.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yeah absolutely, that&#8217;s why I generally don&#8217;t like puzzles (I prefer problems, because they usually have more solutions). In this case, however, the problem isn&#8217;t solving puzzles but simply figuring out how to proceed.</p>
<p>The main investigation mission we have occurs the first section of the game for one storyline and much later in the game for the other, and involves tracking down the hideout of a terrorist cell. You don&#8217;t actually have to follow the leads and talk to the people who can help you find them &#8211; if you can guess the way or if you know it from a previous playthrough, you can actually skip the whole investigation and just go straight to their hideout.</p>
<p>But I found I had to make the trail of breadcrumbs leading to their hideout <em>really</em> easy to follow (by, for example, telling you explicitly in your quest log who to talk to next <img src='http://rooc.offtopicproductions.com/blog/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_confused.gif' alt=':?' class='wp-smiley' />  ). As soon as the player isn&#8217;t told exactly how to find the next clue, the player is very likely to just give up. It&#8217;s easy to condemn the player for being stupid in such situations, but the fact is that not a lot of people enjoy not knowing what to do, and actual independent investigation is really difficult.</p>
<p>I was quite disappointed every time I had to scale down an investigation mission, but I feel that TNM is generally better for it. There are still a few very minor details you need to figure out on your own though, because I just couldn&#8217;t get myself to simplify the game completely.</p>
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		<title>By: Felix</title>
		<link>http://rooc.offtopicproductions.com/blog/2008/04/14/helpful-hand-holding/comment-page-1/#comment-1114</link>
		<dc:creator>Felix</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 Apr 2008 07:51:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://rooc.offtopicproductions.com/blog/2008/04/14/helpful-hand-holding/#comment-1114</guid>
		<description>I frequent a forum for a puzzle game called DROD, and one of the interesting things that I discovered there was how easy it was for players to figure out solutions to puzzles that the author had never thought of, sometimes harder but often easier. What I&#039;ve learnt from this is that no matter how hard you try, you can&#039;t rely on other people to think like you do, and thus you should always try to accommodate for as many different possibilities as possible</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I frequent a forum for a puzzle game called DROD, and one of the interesting things that I discovered there was how easy it was for players to figure out solutions to puzzles that the author had never thought of, sometimes harder but often easier. What I&#8217;ve learnt from this is that no matter how hard you try, you can&#8217;t rely on other people to think like you do, and thus you should always try to accommodate for as many different possibilities as possible</p>
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		<title>By: Jonas</title>
		<link>http://rooc.offtopicproductions.com/blog/2008/04/14/helpful-hand-holding/comment-page-1/#comment-1107</link>
		<dc:creator>Jonas</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 14 Apr 2008 21:05:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://rooc.offtopicproductions.com/blog/2008/04/14/helpful-hand-holding/#comment-1107</guid>
		<description>Ah yes I agree. And of course Army of Two really depends on those co-op moves scattered throughout the maps - without the GPS to tell you where you can lift each other up to another ledge or work together to push a heavy object, you&#039;d spend an incredible amount of time just running around looking for the way forward.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ah yes I agree. And of course Army of Two really depends on those co-op moves scattered throughout the maps &#8211; without the GPS to tell you where you can lift each other up to another ledge or work together to push a heavy object, you&#8217;d spend an incredible amount of time just running around looking for the way forward.</p>
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		<title>By: Casper</title>
		<link>http://rooc.offtopicproductions.com/blog/2008/04/14/helpful-hand-holding/comment-page-1/#comment-1104</link>
		<dc:creator>Casper</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 14 Apr 2008 15:55:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://rooc.offtopicproductions.com/blog/2008/04/14/helpful-hand-holding/#comment-1104</guid>
		<description>Maybe I should correct myself a bit about Army of Two, the thing I like about the GPS is it&#039;s ability to point out objects, the marking on the floor wit arrows about which direction to go is really pushing it to far imo.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Maybe I should correct myself a bit about Army of Two, the thing I like about the GPS is it&#8217;s ability to point out objects, the marking on the floor wit arrows about which direction to go is really pushing it to far imo.</p>
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